Framesets/Frames

[zcorpan]

Browsing pages without the music being interrupted, like I said before.

How is uninterrupted music not doable with iframe? It could also be done with XHR and pushState().

Before and after comparison of pages, revisions, etc.

How is this not doable with iframe?

[zcorpan]

You can contact "those who are making these decisions" on the mailing list.

Yes, or W3C bugzilla.
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug ... +spec+bugs

[pzbrawl]

>There's nothing to rework if you choose not to. The only thing you would
>need to change in an existing HTML 4 application is the pages inside the
>frames and leave the frameset page alone.

"There's nothing to rework ... The only thing you would need to change ..." Contradictory. Which is it?

>"What's wrong with that?"

On what you say, to enhance the pages and keep them standards-compliant, I have to re-work them. That's an abuse of standards, which should not break valid working code providing simpler & neater solutions than the enhancements can.

Especially when the motives for breaking the previously valid code are unreasonable.

> Is the "can be widened" essential to your use case?

Yes.

> ... http://chudosok.detyabozhye.com ...

Nothing near the functionality I am talking about. Think http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library ... 90%29.aspx.

>I also gather you're not very proficient with server-side technology.

As the Apache SSI page says, "SSI is certainly not a replacement for ... other technologies used for generating dynamic web pages..."

These are database-driven PHP pages.

And new standards ought not to require that working code be re-architected in order to remain standards-compliant.

>There are ways to do this without any server-side scripting, but
> server-side scripting is very helpful in this, as well many other things.
> Plus, there are far more technologies than ASP, many of which are
> arguably simpler to use to do many things including help emulate
> frames.

With frames and a bit of JavaScript I can emulate http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library ... 90%29.aspx with 10% of the code or less and no dependence on the underlying OS.

If you can provide similarly efficient examples of a non-ASP replacement for the use of frames I am talking about, your argument amounts to "to be standards-compliant, rewrite it". That is unacceptable.

Absent such examples, I have to conclude that HTML5 makes the functionality I depend on impossible without the overhead of an ASP solution or something similar. Doubly unacceptable.

> To be honest though, I doubt you will make anyone change their mind.

Commissar mentality.

[pzbrawl]

To ...

"With frames and a bit of JavaScript I can emulate http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library ... 90%29.aspx with 10% of the code or less and no dependence on the underlying OS."

I ought to have added ...

... and independent scrolling of the left & right frames.

[zcorpan]

I encourage you to send a summary of this discussion to the WHATWG mailing list or file a bug in W3C bugzilla.

[pzbrawl]

I encourage you to send a summary of this discussion to the WHATWG mailing list or file a bug in W3C bugzilla.

Thanks for the encouragement. Trying to post it to http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public but http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/createaccount.cgi is taking hours to respond with a validating email.

[JAB Creations]

Disabling JavaScript on http://chudosok.detyabozhye.com/ makes the site unusable.

[lyosha]

Nothing near the functionality I am talking about. Think http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library ... 90%29.aspx

For the record, MSDN doesn't use frames anymore and when they did, they still used ASP or ASP.NET to overcome (not fully) the problems with navigation and bookmarking that frames introduce.

[JAB Creations]

Problems with frames result from people who absolutely refuse to acknowledge their usefulness in various situations. Using JavaScript I have absolutely no problem reopening an existing page in a frameset in which it is not an original frame source to begin with.

[pzbrawl]

Lyosha

For the record, MSDN doesn't use frames anymore and when they did, they still used ASP or ASP.NET to overcome (not fully) the problems with navigation and bookmarking that frames introduce.

Oy. Please read more carefully. Nobody said MSDN now uses frames.

I said I need functionality like MSDN's side-by-side tree and detail plus independent scrolling of the tree and detail areas, and I challenged you to point to a website that does that well, allowing editing of both, without frames.

If you could, you would prove that in order to be standards-compliant and keep the functionality I have, I have to re-architect these pages.

If you cannot, you prove that I have to give up either standards compliance or current functionality.

To put it mildly, HTML5 should impose neither choice.

[pzbrawl]

It's now eight hours since I registered with http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public. No confirmation by email yet.

[zcorpan]

It's now eight hours since I registered with http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public. No confirmation by email yet.

Hmm, weird. Try contacting Michael(tm) Smith <mike@w3.org>.

[pzbrawl]

zcorpan, I've written him, thanks again.

[Joop]

I would only argue against frames in regards to sites that put the menus on the left in a frame separate from the content. However the vast majority of those sites tend to be home made and most folks who made them don't really have a deep interest and often abandon their websites eventually.

Do you have a problem with that because you just only saw not right implemented sites? Or do you think that if menu's are a part of the content, which is wrong, and I browse down to the end of the page that a nice empty border on the left or right is a right and neatly setup? The majority is not everyone...., but for those who do have a deep interest you make it impossible. The majority of the sites with heavy css or flash or so are the ones which are abandoned, probably because its too much work to support.

[Joop]

I've said this before, but I'll repeat it for those who don't read but come only to rant:
Browsers will still support frames pages when HTML 5 becomes the standard. Frames pages will just not be valid HTML 5, but they will still render.

Frames have to get back in html 5. If not than browsers might not support frames anymore. Also frames have to be extended with a few more options. If you don't want borders than you have to set FRAMESET border="0" framespacing="0" frameborder="0". Only this is not valid html 4.0x at this moment. And this is the only way to get nothing, all other options do give a border in some way. Also there is no way you can build frames in the same easy way as with frameset and frames. Up to now I still didn't have seen it. Also pages can be better maintained in this way.