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proposal: noimg element

Do you think the HTML spec should do something differently? You can discuss spec feedback here, but you should send it to the WHATWG mailing list or file a bug in the W3C bugzilla for it to be considered.

Postby zcorpan » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:08 pm

ahagen wrote:As for wanting a fallback for a corrupt image, I don't see how that would affect the proposal for noimg.
The browser would need to know which <noimg> element to show when an <img> is corrupt.

ahagen wrote:If I may ask, do you have a guess, or have you heard speculation, about why Microsoft has not properly implemented the object element in IE 8?
They improved their handling of <object> between IE7 and IE8. My speculation is that they can't fix all bugs at once but have to prioritize. Or they are unaware of this being an issue.

I actually have a test case for this and have filed a bug about this to Microsoft (I think twice, but my first report disappeared when they opened the bug database again for IE8). Although I don't get a scrollbar but instead IE8 instantiates the QuickTime plugin. It does show an iframe-ish inset border around the image, too.

https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedba ... kID=350052
http://simon.html5.org/test/ie8rc1-bugs/003.html

ahagen wrote:I wonder why it isn't a higher priority.
It doesn't break sites (because IE7 didn't support it properly) and people don't whine enough about it, I guess. You can comment or vote on the above-mentioned bug (or file a new more specific bug about this).

ahagen wrote:Does Microsoft see the object element as a competitor to Silverlight or another of Microsoft's technologies?
I doubt it.

ahagen wrote:As you've said, it is at least possible, if not probable, that Microsoft could fix object image support faster.
I think that's what we should push for. It would be great if we could use <object> for images in IE, too (without it loading plugins or showing borders or scrollbars).
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Postby ahagen » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:31 pm

Excellent. I will send a comment or feedback to Microsoft about the object element.

My conception of the noimg element is that if the browser is loading and displaying images (meaning that images are enabled), and the page loads an image but the image is corrupt, the browser would do what it currently does such as display nothing or alt text or a corrupt image placeholder icon, and that the noimg element would not be invoked.
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Postby ahagen » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:46 pm

I ran some tests, and have interesting news. I am finding that IE 8 properly loads all images from the object element, with no scroll bars, so long as the HTML has a doctype, or is XHTML. The example I linked to above:

http://www.xml.com/2003/07/02/examples/ ... emo-1.html

is a document without a doctype. I guess IE 8 quirks mode places scroll bars around the images. Using browsershots.org, it appears that IE 7 places scrollbars around those images, even when there is a doctype.

The image loaded from an object element in your IE test suite does have a doctype. It loads properly in IE 8.

http://simon.html5.org/test/ie7b2-bugs/003.html

BTW, IE 8 fails the following tests in your test suite: 7, 8, 12, 14, 16, 17, 18, 29, 30, 33, 35, 37, 41, 46, 47, 50. Test 6 prompts to download add-on software. For the others, it passes. Firefox 3.5 beta 4 passes them all except test 6, which it fails.
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Postby zcorpan » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:13 am

ahagen wrote:The image loaded from an object element in your IE test suite does have a doctype. It loads properly in IE 8.
Do you have the QuickTime plugin installed or not? Do you get a border around the image?
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Postby zcorpan » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:15 am

ahagen wrote:Firefox 3.5 beta 4 passes them all except test 6, which it fails.
It passes for me (you have to scroll down in the box to see the "PASS").
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Postby ahagen » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:21 pm

Re: Firefox 3.5 beta 4 passing the test - that's great. I guess I just misinterpreted it. I'm glad it passes.

Re: testing IE 8 at http://simon.html5.org/test/ie8rc1-bugs/003.htm. No, there is no border around the object. It is identical to how Firefox and Opera render it. I don't have Quicktime installed on this machine.

I came across an announcement from Microsoft that details their improved web standards support, including that for object.

My test page for the object element is here.
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Postby zcorpan » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:04 pm

ahagen wrote:Re: testing IE 8 at http://simon.html5.org/test/ie8rc1-bugs/003.htm. No, there is no border around the object. It is identical to how Firefox and Opera render it. I don't have Quicktime installed on this machine.
Then they do it correctly when there's no plugin installed that also handles the image/png type, but fail when there is -- their native handling should win over plugin handling.
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Postby ahagen » Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:47 pm

I tested IE 8 on XP with and without Quicktime installed. I confirm that in that configuration, placing a PNG in an object element does not work. A border is drawn around the PNG image. I revised my tests to deal with this.

My conclusion: in light of how many installations there are of Quicktime, even if you are willing to develop your web sites with only standards in mind, and not support versions of IE older than version 8, you still can't use PNG files in object elements or many users will get a broken version of your page. You can use GIF files and JPEG files in object elements, however. I don't believe the problem could be eliminated by simply including a help file on one's site instructing users to uninstall Quicktime or how to reconfigure it into not breaking PNG support. Most users wouldn't benefit from that.

In light of all this, I think it would be best to withdraw my proposal for the noimg element, and now do so. While theoretically a noimg proposal might prove useful to goad Apple and Microsoft into fixing the problem discussed above, in the end, I think we can and should live without the noimg element because in all likelihood the one remaining obstacle to object nirvana can get fixed, probably will get fixed soon, and until then you can use GIF and JPEG files instead.

Thanks, Simon.
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Applying multiple styles HTML elements and significance of &

Postby elizas » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:53 am

There can be multiple CSS classes and inline style applied to a single html element. By the default CSS rule, if same style attribute is set with different values on top of a single element, the closest attribute value will dominate in the out put at the browser end. !important is a special attribute that can break the rule, and can force a particular style irrespective of the hierarchy of all the styles applied.

Here is the example, that makes it more clear.

- The following block of code will display the line in Green, due to the CSS class applied to it.
<style type="text/css">
.DivStyle{color: Green;}
</style>

<div class="divStyle">
This is content in the div.
</div>

http://www.mindfiresolutions.com/Applying-multiple-styles-HTML-elements-and-significance-of-important--attribute-in-forcing-styles-440.php
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