Do not drop html elements and attributes I like!

[desbest]

Do not drop html elements and attributes I like!
Such as

* big i like this tag
* center ie6 is bad at css and text-align; so this tage helps things
* font (allowed when inserted by WYSIWYG editors)
* frame you can't just drop frames because css is upon us?
* frameset you can't just drop frames because css is upon us?
* noframes you can't just drop frames because css is upon us?
* noscript some school and libraries disable javascript
* s can't i strikethrough text?
* u how else am i meant to underline text[/b]

[anne]

What problem is solved by having these elements?

[desbest]

Three.

IE6 is bad at css so a center tag will help where text-align; doesn't.

Some people like to use frames like propellerheads
www.propellerheads.se They make popular music software.

And people know and love the font tag, not everybody wants to have to resort to css for styling text.

Noscript, what do I do if javascript is disabled? How can I check it?

Underline is good because it's much easier than <font class="underline"> or <span style="text-decoration: underline;">

[anne]

I don't think we should constrain the language to what IE6 currently supports as that will change over time.

Frames have all kinds of usability issues. Not being able to bookmark, etc.

<noscript> is actually conforming for HTML documents. Though checking if JavaScript is enabled can be done by simply checking if the script is executed or not.

For the <u> thing your problem description is not really clear. Sure, <u> is shorter than either of those, but what problem are you trying to solve?

[Le Sage]

* s can't i strikethrough text?
* u how else am i meant to underline text[/b]

Have you heard about CSS?

Code: Select all

<span style="text-decoration: underline line-through;">test</span>

Though checking if JavaScript is enabled can be done by simply checking if the script is executed or not.

Do you mean there is a way of doing this without noscript?

Code: Select all

<script type="text/javascript">alert("hello world");</script>
<noscript>you should really enable JavaScript</noscript>

@desbest: as far as I know, almost everything that big, center or font do on IE6 can be done with styling any element (like a span); otherwise there are still JavaScript hacks; & if JavaScript is disabled, oh well...

[zcorpan]

Do you mean there is a way of doing this without noscript?

Code: Select all

<script type="text/javascript">alert("hello world");</script>
<noscript>you should really enable JavaScript</noscript>

Code: Select all

<p id=noscript>you should really enable JavaScript</p>
<script>
var e = document.getElementById('noscript');
e.parentNode.removeChild(e);
alert("hello world");
</script>

[Le Sage]

well done, didn't think about this one
though, the noscript tag makes it unneccessary to do this kind of code in each of your webpages I guess

[OmegaJunior]

What problem is solved by having these elements?

Frames, for instance, allow for separation and reuse of content without requiring script, either client-side or server-side. Can reduce the amount of bandwidth use and download lag for the visitor.

I don't think we should constrain the language to what IE6 currently supports as that will change over time.

I doubt that MSIE6 will ever change its CSS support. Other versions, mayhaps.

Frames have all kinds of usability issues. Not being able to bookmark, etc.

That is a problem of the browser, not of the author. Bookmarking, since you mention it, is possible for frames in Opera and Firefox, last time I checked.

[desbest]

Frames have all kinds of usability issues. Not being able to bookmark, etc.

That is a problem of the browser, not of the author. Bookmarking, since you mention it, is possible for frames in Opera and Firefox, last time I checked.

It actually is possible when server side scripting is used, for example
index.php?frameview=emailme

[Le Sage]

Frames, for instance, allow for separation and reuse of content without requiring script, either client-side or server-side.

That's true, but considering no web browser has ever supprted frames perfectly, & considering they bring so many trouble, I guess it was considered that using scripting was the least developpers could do if they wanted frame-like behaviour.
Anyway, browsers won't stop supporting frames any time soon, so if you don't like the idea of giving up frames, your code just won't validate HTML 5, that's all.

[ktf]

And of course you can simulate frame-like behavior with CSS:

Code: Select all

position: fixed;

That doesn't reduce bandwidth, but frames already consume more bandwidth: if you have 3 frames you'll have to load 4 pages, which results in more traffic. I think user experience has much more priority than webmaster's will: frames are problematic these days with search engines these days.

[desbest]

It's all about the z-index and fixed positioning when it comes to using css to have the same effect as frames but not using frames.

[Le Sage]

You're right, guys, but I think OmegaJunior was more focused on factorizing html code (like a menu for example). Though I completely agree, I hate frames.

[SneakyWho_am_i]

Drop all those elements, I hate them.

Except noscript - I don't hate that. But it's still useless, drop it anyway.

I've been writing XHTML lately (but this week I decided I could no longer live without canvas for ajax throbbers and stuff...) So I parted with the lovely noscript tag ages ago *sniff*

It's great for raising awareness, but otherwise it sucks.

What happens if your server hiccups on character encoding some time and your script doesn't execute? With noscript elements, the user is left wondering where their canvas paint program went. However if you use only normal elements, you can already have a warning there saying "Hey, something went wrong, you can't do captcha/paint/whatever because the script didn't load for some reason"

Basically the noscript element is only useful:
- if the user has javascript disabled

And it is HARMFUL:
- if the script execution does not begin
- if the script execution ends abnormally
- if minotaurs from space attack
- in most other cases

Really I don't think the noscript element is needed even for the HTML parser as it doesn't seem to serve any real purpose. It's just behavioural silliness, and we have javascript for that.

[JAB Creations]

frame, frameset, and noscript elements are the only legit elements that a site should be able to use. Granted it takes a person of higher skill level to produce a frame-like navigation though frames still easily have their place on the web. Just because they are abused does not mean they should be ejected from suggested new versions of (X)HTML.