Framesets/Frames

[WebMartin28]

I need help in understanding the ramifications of Framesets in HTML 5. As I understand it, <frameset>, <frame> and <noframes> tags will be deprecated with HTML 5.0. While I understand this is still a working draft, what are the chances of this changing before it's final release?

I ask because I am part of a team which governs the standards here at my company, and we have many of our products that are framed. Since, as of this time, it looks like frames is going to be deprecated, I wanted to find out if that is likely to change, or not.

Thank you so much for any assistance that you can provide...

WebMartin28

[zcorpan]

If there are valid use-cases for frames then I guess it can be reconsidered.

What do you need frames for, exactly?

[WebMartin28]

To be quite honest, the team I work on does not want to use frames. We keep getting push-back from our engineers that they need to use frames to make their job easier, and because Frames is still a valid tag in HTML 4.0, we can't really tell them not to use it.

So essentially, I wanted to find out the chances that Frames would be reconsidered, because changing our products from Frames, to Divs would take a few years to do. If it's likely that frames would remain off-the-books for HTML 5, then I would like to start the process of informing Senior VP's and other necessary parties that when HTML 5.0 comes online, every product that uses Frames will be in non-compliance to the HTML 5.0 Guidelines.

I hope that makes sense. For the record, I currently support the deprecation of the <frameset>, <frame> and <noframes> tags, for the Accessibility reasons that have been stated. We monitor how accessible our products are, and Frames complicate things, and just make things far too difficult, sometimes... Especially when some engineers solve problems by embedding framesets within framesets within framesets. That's an Accessibility nightmare.

Please let me know if you have further questions. Short answer to your question is, we don't feel we *need* frames for anything...

WebMartin28

[zcorpan]

Ok.

Obviously I can't predict the future but I've seen many reasons why frames are bad and very few valid use-cases for frames, which suggests that frames will continue to be non-conforming in HTML5.

But, it is quite possible to use an HTML4 frameset document and put HTML5 documents in each frame.

[WebMartin28]

I wanted to revisit this topic, because an interesting thought just came up. As I understand it (and I'm taking someone else's word for it, as I haven't had time to check this out yet), iFrames are still valid in the current HTML 5 Working Draft. First, is this the case?

Second, if so, why are iFrames allowed to remain? It seems to me that someone who wanted to conform to HTML 5 Recommendations (when, of course, that does happen), and still use Framesets, they could create embedded iFrames, to achieve the frameset model. Would this not create the same accessibility issues as Framesets currently do?

I hope my question made sense. If not, I'm happy to elaborate...

WebMartin28

[drz]

I am very much in favor of iframes becoming an integral part of HTML5. As a matter of fact I have written a 3 part article on this subject at http://web-zonez.com/revolution/target/, on my site.

On the other hand, I agree that the frames are dead. Actually, one of the main purposes of my site is to introduce the ZoneZ concept - an unorthodox web page layout technique that offers all the benefits of frames approach without the problems associated with the Frames. Detailed discussion can be found at:
http://web-zonez.com/revolution/

[zcorpan]

iFrames are still valid in the current HTML 5 Working Draft. First, is this the case?

Yes.

Second, if so, why are iFrames allowed to remain?

They have valid use-cases. For example, to include ads, or to include a <video> with scripted controls.

It seems to me that someone who wanted to conform to HTML 5 Recommendations (when, of course, that does happen), and still use Framesets, they could create embedded iFrames, to achieve the frameset model. Would this not create the same accessibility issues as Framesets currently do?

Likely. It's not clear to me that you'd be conforming though, since you have to use elements for their appropriate semantic purpose...

[deezzer]

Greetings.

Unless you can add an attribute to iframes so that users can manually adjust the framed window, framesets are very much needed.

Here's a reference to the problem with iframes that framesets solve: http://www.webmaster-talk.com/html-foru ... rames.html

Nevermind that my site would depend on framesets for the coming years, but Craigslist is one of the top most visited sites, and depends on the flexibility of these tags inside their forums!

Using CSS won't work to divide up windows, because as users embed other service technologies into pages (ie: youtube videos), these mashup elements bleed (overlay in unexpected ways) into the other CSS divs, making it very ugly and not reliable.

The only solution then is to use framesets with <frame> tags. And although framesets do have their cons, with javascript programming, a coder can iron out some flaws easily. Framesets simply provide a solid solution to ensure flexibility for the user experience - please do not depreciate it.

-Dominic Son

[Le Sage]

Unless you can add an attribute to iframes so that users can manually adjust the framed window, framesets are very much needed.

iframes & divs can be resized with JavaScript very easily, there are tons of scripts online that can do that.

Nevermind that my site would depend on framesets for the coming years, but Craigslist is one of the top most visited sites, and depends on the flexibility of these tags inside their forums!

I haven't visited all CraigsList, but all pages I've seen validate CSS & HTML (though some are in Quirk Mode), but I haven't seen any frame).

Using CSS won't work to divide up windows, because as users embed other service technologies into pages (ie: youtube videos), these mashup elements bleed (overlay in unexpected ways) into the other CSS divs, making it very ugly and not reliable.

This can usually be fixed with correctly written CSS, I guess.

The only solution then is to use framesets with <frame> tags. And although framesets do have their cons, with javascript programming, a coder can iron out some flaws easily.

Except for the (many) user agents that don't support JavaScript, as crawlers for example.

[deezzer]

frames & divs can be resized with JavaScript very easily, there are tons of scripts online that can do that.

Perhaps I was not specific enough - I meant that framesets enable the end client user to adjust their frames and resize them to their taste. Again, here's reference to the problem: http://www.webmaster-talk.com/html-foru ... rames.html

Quote:
Nevermind that my site would depend on framesets for the coming years, but Craigslist is one of the top most visited sites, and depends on the flexibility of these tags inside their forums!

I haven't visited all CraigsList, but all pages I've seen validate CSS & HTML (though some are in Quirk Mode), but I haven't seen any frame).

Their whole discussion forums, a major area of craigslist relies on them:
Select a topic first: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/

Quote:
Using CSS won't work to divide up windows, because as users embed other service technologies into pages (ie: youtube videos), these mashup elements bleed (overlay in unexpected ways) into the other CSS divs, making it very ugly and not reliable.

This can usually be fixed with correctly written CSS, I guess.

When setting CSS footers or headers absolutely for a section of the page, say a youtube embedded videos is present, it'll magically 'bleed through' CSS divs as the page scrolls up and down. With frames, they're clean.

Quote:
The only solution then is to use framesets with <frame> tags. And although framesets do have their cons, with javascript programming, a coder can iron out some flaws easily.
Except for the (many) user agents that don't support JavaScript, as crawlers for example.

This is HTML 5. I would imagine Web 2.0 and beyond. Javascript is to be expected - AJAX/XHR is ubiquitous.

[Le Sage]

Perhaps I was not specific enough - I meant that framesets enable the end client user to adjust their frames and resize them to their taste.

I got that. JavaScript can add visible borders & give the user the possibility to dynamically resize them. See the jQuery UI SplitPane for example.

Their whole discussion forums, a major area of craigslist relies on them:
Select a topic first: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/

I see. Well if they keep this code this way, it simply won't validate. They will sure need lots of recoding if they want to validate their code. I agree that's annoying.

When setting CSS footers or headers absolutely for a section of the page, say a youtube embedded videos is present, it'll magically 'bleed through' CSS divs as the page scrolls up and down. With frames, they're clean.

Sounds like a browser bug. Is it present on all browsers ? If it's a bug, it's probably already submitted to a bug list already somewhere, so hopefuly it will be fixed some day.

This is HTML 5. I would imagine Web 2.0 and beyond. Javascript is to be expected - AJAX/XHR is ubiquitous.

Hum, I don't want to suggest that I know the essence of what the WHATWG & the HTML working group want for HTML 5, but I guess HTML 5 isn't done only for browsers that support & enable JavaScript. The web isn't done only for IE, FF, Safari, Opera & Konqueror. Many (many) browsers don't support fully JavaScript, & many user agent don't on purpose (like I said crawlers for example). The web is done for them too.

[Joop]

[quote="drz"]I am very much in favor of iframes becoming an integral part of HTML5. As a matter of fact I have written a 3 part article on this subject at [url]http://web-zonez.com/revolution/target/[/url], on my site.

On the other hand, I agree that the frames are dead. Actually, one of the main purposes of my site is to introduce the ZoneZ concept - an unorthodox web page layout technique that offers all the benefits of frames approach without the problems associated with the Frames. Detailed discussion can be found at:
[url]http://web-zonez.com/revolution/[/url][/quote]

You wrote on your site;
"Search Engines can not find the targeted pages, since the main file is a frame control file, and - from the point of view of Search Engines, is essentially an empty file. We do not need any more justifications, do we? When Search Engines (now-a-days mighty GOOGLE) speaks, everybody listens! "

You are wrong on this point. Big firms like Google want, better demands, direct access to pages because that's in their interest, not in the one of the user or the designer. Ever tried to look for something with Google? And did you found what you're looking for? And how much time did you spend to accomplice your search? It seems that the find count is more important for them so they can sell their stuff better, whatever that might be. But from the point of the visitor is very questionable if he/she wants direct access to a certain page. Not to mention that page builders do have a front door in which they set the rules for visiting their site.

I use frames, in my latest very heavily. My "control file", as you name it, does have meta information, so its not empty at all and does tell exact what can be found. So the Google argument isn't valid. Also you can tag the page without a problem. You tag a "control file", yes, but when activated you get the page including all frames which belong to that page. So the user get full control and can see where he/she is.

Also from the point of designing the frames are much easier than ditto in CSS to get the same effect. CSS was first something to deal with "global" things from your site. Today we see a lot of abuse of CSS and its growing rapidly to something which can't be understood easily anymore. I get the feeling you need some kind of degree in programming. This again is just what some big firms want. Make it that difficult that you can't do without program X. But they have or get some problems due to some court decisions in Europe and the trial has yet to come if one can say "sorry, I didn't know, I used program X, blame them".

Also the www is for everyone, not only for Windows users, not only for those who can afford a programmer to write their stuff, not only for big firms with application X. And not every OS is on par with latest development, not to mention that some big firms refuses to port their "standard" to all OS systems.
But I don't hear that we have to drop those non-standard non-html things, not a word.

[lyosha]

When setting CSS footers or headers absolutely for a section of the page, say a youtube embedded videos is present, it'll magically 'bleed through' CSS divs as the page scrolls up and down. With frames, they're clean.

If you really must have something above Flash, look into wmode: http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/155/tn_15523.html

To understand this issue, you need to understand windowing and various other concepts not strictly tied to HTML. I would highly recommend studying things about computers outside of HTML.

This is HTML 5. I would imagine Web 2.0 and beyond. Javascript is to be expected - AJAX/XHR is ubiquitous.

Like Le Sage said, the web isn't only for people with one of the top 3 browsers; there are screen readers, crawlers, mobile devices, and many more user agents that don't support every aspect of Javascript or don't support it all for good reasons.

[JAB Creations]

Frames have valid applications for those who aren't insanely high-tech. In example I've long used frames on my site to allow visitors to listen to music while browsing my site...as they visit new pages the music continues uninterrupted. Without frames this is almost next to impossible unless you're a JavaScript guru.

I would only argue against frames in regards to sites that put the menus on the left in a frame separate from the content. However the vast majority of those sites tend to be home made and most folks who made them don't really have a deep interest and often abandon their websites eventually.

Eventually when software gets smarter at adapting to what users want frames should be removed from standards however it simply is not the case at this time.

[lyosha]

Frames have valid applications for those who aren't insanely high-tech. In example I've long used frames on my site to allow visitors to listen to music while browsing my site...as they visit new pages the music continues uninterrupted. Without frames this is almost next to impossible unless you're a JavaScript guru.

Well, background music, just like frames, is bad, IMHO. If it's just a page where people can optionally listen to music you have, then if people want to listen to it, they can open it in a new tab.